Comments: Remedial Education in History
See: "Warsaw Uprising."
Ask: "How did that work out for you?"
I continue to be baffled why gun-rights advocates continually point to mass murders and systematic evil such as the Holocaust, and then say, "If only those people had had a carry permit this could all have been avoided."
In fact, what the record shows that when legally-armed, private citizens subdues deadly or potentially deadly criminals, the event is neither unusual nor chaotic, and the citizen almost always matches or overmatches the criminal's weapon. See here, for example.
But the fact is that without at least weapons parity, or close to it, a legally-armed, private citizen will not prevail except by simple luck. That is why when the Jews of Warsaw finally decided to arm themselves and fight back, the Nazis simply destroyed them.
Aurora is simply not relevant either to reinforce the case of gun-control advocates or of gun-rights advocates.
Posted by Donald Sensing at July 28, 2012 12:38 PM
Don, Your conflation of war and crime yields a non sequitur. Perhaps that is intentional on your part? You've got a problem with over generalization too. "could all have been avoided" is not what those of us who consider self-defense to be a human right are asserting. Evil exists and no it won't be avoided entirely. What we do assert, is that we can make it more costly for evil do-ers and hopefully limit the damage they do. At the margin, those without the morals to control themselves will be deterred by the risk of death or bodily injury. The crazies, not so much, but as noted damage limitation applies.
Posted by RKV at July 28, 2012 2:06 PM
Oh well, I just put all this together in another post, "The Myth of the Armed Citizen."
Posted by Donald Sensing at July 28, 2012 2:24 PM
I'm not the one who conflated war and crime - whomever made the illustration did.
From my most recent post on this topic:
My argument in this context is not that legally-armed citizens hardly ever stop potentially or actually lethal criminal activity. Clearly, they do. My issue is best described by the pro-gun site, The Truth About Guns:
However, there have been enough mass-shootings in shall-issue states that it’s time to admit that the notion that “it will stop mass killings” is not a valid justification for shall-issue CCW. For all the bloody publicity they garnish, mass shootings are anomalies, freak incidents of human mayhem, the equivalent of bridge collapses or flesh-eating-bacteria outbreaks. Terrible and tragic, but not very common, and not really “preventable” in any practical sense.
I have to admit that I sometimes think that the extreme pro-gunners are the mirror image of the gun banners. The gun banners see guns as the cause of every problem and the gun-rights extremists see guns as the solution to every problem. The reality: complex problems won’t be resolved with bumper-sticker solutions, no matter how attractive or simple or convenient they might appear.
I’m not saying there aren’t valid reasons for shall-issue CCW. I think there are many. But the notion that liberalized CCW will prevent “mass shootings” is not one of them.
Posted by Donald Sensing at July 28, 2012 2:27 PM
Although they only had two machine-guns, fifteen rifles and 500 pistols, the Jews opened fire on the soldiers.
Yes, I see the problem.
They hadn't a well-armed militia. Nevertheless, those that died fighting were the last free men in Warsaw. Oh, that America's free men might find their resolve to die so bravely, with purpose and choice, instead of bravely being right on the interwebs.
Guns don't solve all my problems, but having one calms my nerves a bit.
Posted by Joan of Argghh! at July 28, 2012 3:41 PM
One does not wait until after one has been confined to the ghetto to use one's handgun. One uses the handgun before being confined to the ghetto.
Posted by B Lewis at July 28, 2012 3:43 PM
"See: "Warsaw Uprising."
Ask: "How did that work out for you?"
I guess it beats having me, the wife, the kids, and every other family on the block forced to board boxcars at gunpoint.
"The gun banners see guns as the cause of every problem and the gun-rights extremists see guns as the solution to every problem."
Pastor Sensing, this might not be the most important point to make when discussing pointing firearms at an auditorium full of people and pulling the trigger over and over and over until the SWAT team shows up, but the difference between gun-banners and gun-rights extremists is that one group wants to restrict the liberties of others preemptively, in the absence of any provable threat. The main problem I think gun-rights extremists are trying to deal with are gun-banners. Gun-rights extremists don't go around trying to get laws passed mandating firearms ownership and training, analogous to normal people not going around insisting that vegans eat ham and eggs. Give vegans or gun-restriction types a chance, however, and they will be happy to push everyone else around, eight days a week.
It's the Left's well-worn tool of group rights flipped over, and revealing the frightening beast we don't usually see, the notion of group responsibility, group obligation, group punishment, and if it comes to that, doing something about groups that won't get with the program. I don't think I want to play.
Writing the above reminds me to feel ashamed of my first response upon hearing about Aurora, which was not empathy for the people wondering what idiot opened the fire door down by the screen and letting the light in and messing up the show, and what's that he has in his hand. Instead, I thought "Here we go again. Time to dig out all the rants and ripostes I used after Littleton." Thinking about what little I know about wound ballistics puts that in perspective, but shame on me anyway.
Whatever other flaws I have, I have never once shown that I cannot be trusted with a firearm, and I refuse to be punished if I haven't done anything wrong, just to make Leftists happy. We can share a country with Leftists, but only barely.
Posted by Mike James at July 29, 2012 12:33 AM
Sensing to Flt 93's Todd Beamer:
"How'd that work out for ya?"
Posted by southernjames at July 29, 2012 4:42 AM
Weird. Are the comments being erased on purpose?
Posted by Joan of Argghh! at July 29, 2012 4:44 AM
Sensing to Jim Bowie and Davy Crockett:
"How'd that work out for ya?"
Posted by southernjames at July 29, 2012 4:54 AM
Don seems a tad over defensive perhaps mentally unstable. He also admits to having numerous guns around his property. Perhaps a quiet word to Homeland Security is in order. Hey, Don, that's a funny looking crow coming at you right now.
Posted by Anonymous at July 29, 2012 5:11 AM
...normal people not going around insisting that vegans eat ham and eggs.
Hey, that sounds like an idea whose time has arrived.
Perhaps delivering to the Lefties that which they promote, might disturb them. If nothing else, it's an amusing pastime pissing them off.
Posted by Peccable at July 29, 2012 7:40 AM