Comments: Ann Barnhardt: "Regarding the cattleman in Nevada" [Bumped]
It isn't as much the cattleman, or if he is in violation of some law or not. If he is, then let them arrest him and give him his day in court. The armed agents are an overreach. It looks and smells like a tyranny.
What if it is about a turtle? The Federal govt. looks mighty stupid if this is the case. However, there are supporters of tyranno-environmentalism, and I would say they see things from a weirdly violent perspective. They are out to "save the planet," after all.
It's not about cows, now. It's not about rent for forage. It's about proportionality, and the strange personality of our gubbmint. I wouldn't care if Bundy were a small time crook, a necromancer, or a side-show freak. He is a citizen and deserves due process. Snipers not included as due process.
Posted by Casey Klahn at April 11, 2014 11:04 AM
I have zero affinity for the BLM. If they disappeared tomorrow and the land was returned to the respective states that would be just dandy.
But this rancher is a nutball. He stopped paying on his BLM leases over a decade ago because he's Mormon and thinks his family's historic use of the land entitles him to grazing rights in perpetuity.
Yes, he is a citizen, and yes he deserves due process - that is exactly what he is getting right now. This mess didn't drop on him out of the blue, he's been thumbing his nose at BLM for a very long time, and -for reasons I do not know- the BLM appears to have gone out of their way to be very tolerant of his nonsense.
Posted by ThomasD at April 11, 2014 12:13 PM
How'zabout both sides suck. Plenty of suckage to go around.
Pay your damn grazing fees, ya' freeloading scum. No better than welfare teat suckers.
Handle this shit without freakin' snipers and "first amendment zones" and the rest of heavy handed BS, ya' brown shirted ass clowns.
Feel free to shoot each other.
Man, is it beer thirty yet...?
Posted by tim at April 11, 2014 12:27 PM
He was paying his grazing fees. He didn't stop paying his grazing fees, he paid them to Clark County instead of the BLM.
Further, the area was suddenly declared federal property not to protect turtles, which have coexisted with cattle since the 1600s but because a political donor to Harry Reid wants the land to develop.
http://www.examiner.com/article/reid-stealing-rancher-s-land-and-cattle-to-pay-off-contributor
I'm not saying this guy is a good guy, maybe he's a jerk. But he's not in the wrong here.
Posted by Christopher Taylor at April 11, 2014 12:48 PM
Thank you, oh Tim for your words (OK, now I have a beer).
The turtle survived the buffalo but has a problem with cattle, sounds like a personal issue.
The story as told by that lady seems to be missing a few essential details. First, that the family has been in fact grazing on that piece of ground for about a century and in fact claim it under some reasonable legal precepts regarding possession. That the BLM flipped a switch, or blinked or however they do things and suddenly claimed possession and began demanding grazing fees but without any legal action of any kind. (Is it possible that the BLM might be Barry's real baby daddy?)
Why are so many people inured to the idea that the US Government owns everything and the rest of us are just serf's squatting on their property?
I'm with the rancher, that turtle is a racist!
Posted by John at April 11, 2014 2:38 PM
Awright everybody, spread out. This is not an either/or situation. Both sides are at fault and both sides have some, I said some legit concerns.
If the guy was rustling some of my cattle, I would want him to be arrested and taken through the courts. We don't lynch folks anymore; horse thieves don't get the rope from a put-together posse and a convenient tree.
If the guy was rustling some of my cattle I'd be plenty pissed at him but I would not urge the sheriff to shoot him on sight and all his family as well and then burn his barns.
I don't trust the guy, Bundy. There is enough to suggest he is not on the up and up. I do not trust our government at all and in this case I do not trust the BLM. That being said, there is no clear right vs wrong, good vs evil. Who do I want to die for? Well ... not either side of this one.
Posted by chasmatic at April 11, 2014 3:47 PM
This isn't about a man thumbing his nose at government. It's about the decline, nationwide and mostly at the federal level, of property rights. What cattle ranchers like Bundy have in long standing grazing rights is a form of property right without actual ownership of land. The federal government, under pressure from a number of environmental groups like the Sierra Club, has slowly been taking property rights without the use of eminent domain. This is just one example of a much larger process which includes Spotted Owl habitat, Wetlands protection, coastal and marine protection, etc.
Simply put, the state is asserting collective ownership of everything. It's time to put a stop to it.
Posted by Frank at April 11, 2014 5:12 PM
Anybody notice any cops or federal agents refusing to participate in this sort of operation? Yeah, me neither, but I'm sure that will start any day now or the next 100 years.
Posted by Scott M at April 11, 2014 6:12 PM
Frank: It certainly is about a man thumbing his nose at government. but it is also about much more:
The decline of property rights;
pressure from environmental groups;
heavy-handed enforcement;
favoritism toward campaign donors;
graft and corruption.
You know better than I do there are more grievances and we should not forget this is Nevada, Harry Reid's turf.
We shouldn't forget that Bundy has his hands on the oars as well; I suppose there is some kind of proof that he was trying to cooperate, to resolve the issues, trying to do his part to make things right. Even though the rat bastard federal government is trying to screw him, he has had plenty of time and is acting in good faith, right?
Posted by chasmatic at April 11, 2014 8:20 PM
Even if he were Saint Peter himself, the fheds would make him out to be a nutbar. It is the way of the feds and the media. He could be looney duck mcScrooge, for all I care. You don't go in and confiscate cattle, armed with snipers and federal agents. What does it take to arrest a man? Not this.
He has some ground under him, IMO. The BLM and the Dept. of the Interior are too damn big. Much of BLM land belongs to the states, and yet the feds treat it like their kingdom, and claim to protect a turtle. What @ Reid's solar farm, now? new kettle of fish. The only sane move by the US gubmint is to back down, and re-approach this in a civil manner.
Posted by Casey Klahn at April 11, 2014 8:41 PM
Listen to the interview on Dana Loesch's blog:
http://danaloeschradio.com/
It indicates that 20 years ago the BLM declared the Desert Turtle an endangered species in the area and at the time there were 51 other ranchers in Clark County, Nevada. Now Bundy is the last one standing. I hope someone can do the investigative journalism to show how the BLM has used the Endangered Species Act and lawfare to drive ranchers out of this area. It is perfectly in line with the way the Greens work. There doesn't have to be a profit motive or Harry Reid wanting a solar farm in the area. The Greens are anti-human activity and are trying their best to
stop it wherever they can. They are always inside the limits of the law because the Endangered Species Act is the most anti-private property law that's ever been passed in this country. And they know which judges are favorable to the Green causes.
At one time the BLM and Forest Service partnered with ranchers, farmers, loggers, and other people who wrested a living out of Federal government land because it was a resource owned by and for the benefit of the citizens. It was considered a good thing for those lands to be used for economic benefit. And the government always got paid fees, it wasn't free to the users. No more. These agencies have been driving private activity off government land for the last thirty years. They have slowly populated these agencies with true believers in the Green catechism and have infiltrated the EPA. They are now willing and able to use lethal force, as in the case of Bundy, if that is what's required.
If the government kills the rancher or any of his friends, they might be able to claim it was a lawful act, but it is really a tragedy. This is a contest of wills between a stubborn and courageous rancher and a behemoth government that's impatient to get it's way. They're saying, "The other 51 ranchers left pretty easily. What's wrong with this old coot? If we let him get away with this, we are seen as weak and unable to enforce the law." Don't we wish they felt that way about enforcing our borders? Cooler heads in the BLM would realize they are getting some bad press and recognize that this is a time to keep their powder dry. Let's hope they do.
Posted by Jimmy J. at April 11, 2014 9:17 PM
chasmatic -
I should have said "This isn't JUST about a man thumbing his nose at government."
What you said is true.
Posted by Frank at April 11, 2014 9:19 PM
Fuck off, Ann.
http://www.infowars.com/breaking-sen-harry-reid-behind-blm-land-grab-of-bundy-ranch/
You can't make stuff like this up, nobody would believe you.
Posted by james wilson at April 11, 2014 9:43 PM
Fuck off, Ann.
http://www.infowars.com/breaking-sen-harry-reid-behind-blm-land-grab-of-bundy-ranch/
You can't make stuff like this up, nobody would believe you.
Posted by james wilson at April 11, 2014 9:43 PM
Alex Jones has posted info he knows to be false. He's posted info on PrisonPlanet/InfoWars that his source told him was one thing and AJ described it as pics of UN/NWO soldiers operating a concentration camp inside the US. The truth, the pics were of Republic of Georgia Military Police soldiers training to run checkpoints at a simulated city built on the grounds of Ft Dix in New Jersey.
Alex Jones knows when he is lying, does his audience?
Posted by Scott M at April 11, 2014 10:28 PM
Oh, yeah, speaking of Harry Reid:
"Reid and Chinese solar venture - He and his oldest son, Rory, are both involved in an effort by a Chinese energy giant, ENN Energy Group, to build a $5 billion solar farm and panel manufacturing plant in the southern Nevada desert... His son, a lawyer with a prominent Las Vegas firm that is representing ENN, helped it locate a 9,000-acre desert site that it is buying well below appraised value from Clark County."
Marcus Stern at Reuters
"Land rush - Harry Reid worked BLM to literally change the boundaries of the tortoise’s habitat to accommodate the development of his top donor, Harvey Whittemore. Whittemore was convicted of illegal campaign contributions to Senator Reid. Reid’s former senior adviser is now the head of BLM. Reid is accused of using the new BLM chief as a puppet to control Nevada land... BLM says they supersede whatever agreement Bundy had prior; they demanded that he reduce his living, his thousand-some-odd head of cattle down to a tiny herd of 150."
danaradio at danaloeschradio.com
What is the line in Vegas, whether Reid sleeps with the fishes?
Posted by chasmatic at April 11, 2014 11:09 PM
More dots -
As of a couple of hours ago - FAA restricted the airspace over the area.
http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_1687.html
Natural News yesterday – http://www.naturalnews.com/044670_BLM_lies_fracking_leases_Bundy_ranch.html##ixzz2yWmhs1mx
This article is two years old but answers the question - how the hell is it the fed gov “owns” so much of “our” land – http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2014/04/the_battle_for_3.php
"In eleven western states, the federal government claims ownership of more than 50% of the land. Utah intends to get its land back. Utah's HR148, recently signed into law by the Governor, tells the federal government that federal land in Utah, other than specified national parks, monuments, and wilderness areas, will be taken by eminent domain by the state of Utah if it has not been transferred to the state by the end of 2014."
I have no end of admiration for Ann B. but I think she is wrong on this one.
Mr. Bundy is not the best communicator I've ever heard or he would have said this over and over and over in every interview - from an article on the 4th -
Bundy responds that had the BLM erected the proper fencing, his cattle wouldn’t be in trespass. Nevada law is a “fence out” law that requires adjoin property owners, in this case the BLM, to maintain a fence that prevents cattle or other stock from encroaching in unwanted areas. “If the U.S. had properly maintained its fence, my cattle would hot have strayed or drifted off my property,” Bundy said."
Posted by LadyRavenSDC at April 12, 2014 1:05 AM
I was very surprised to read this opinion from Barnhardt. She's got it wrong. As smart and as suspicious as she is of the federal gov't, she should have delayed her comments. I imagine, now that the details of "Clean Face" Harry Reid, his son, Rory, and his relationship with ENN (China) are coming to light, she is regretting jumping the gun.
Posted by AbigailAdams at April 12, 2014 4:06 AM
I wonder how important desert turtle habitat will be when the time comes to cover it with solar panels of traditional Chinese export quality and integrity? I wonder if the "addiction" period will take longer than the "Oops...time to entirely scrap, and replace, the ENTIRE project with taxes on folks that actually make money, because "infrastructure".
Posted by CaptDMO at April 12, 2014 4:28 AM
I love and admire Ann, but she's dead wrong and like a lot of people needs to do some more research.
First off, we have to recognize that grazing rights are a type of property right for sure, even though the land itself is not owned.
Second, for over 20 years the government has been jacking up grazing fees on the Bundy family and other ranchers. This has resulted in 52 other ranchers being driven off this area of land in NV. The Bundy family is the only ranching family left to be driven off.
According to a Bundy family member, the Bundy family has been paying grazing fees all this time, but at the original, non-jacked up rate, and paid to an escrow account to the county. The county has refused to accept these fees, so I am assuming they are in limbo.
Do date, the BLM has been using helicopters to run Bundy's cattle around the ranch, exhausting these animals and threatening further abuse until death.
The BLM will also not comment on whether the cattle they have already rounded up--the Bundy's property, by the way--have been sold, or have died or been killed at the hands of the BLM.
You all should also be watching some of the video from a few days ago showing BLM goons body-slamming another Bundy family member to the ground--a 57 year-old woman cancer survivor.
The obscene overreach shown here by "our" govt. should be a very serious matter to every American and deserves more thoughtful consideration instead of snap responses.
Posted by Eric Gagnon at April 12, 2014 5:21 AM
Maybe not here but one of these altercations IS going to start the shooting part of the civil disturbance. This bunch of yahoos in DC cannot spell deescalation since it isn't in their vocabulary.
It does have to come to this, the middle no longer exists.
There can be only one!
Posted by Vermont Woodchuck at April 12, 2014 6:18 AM
Hm I commented but apparently didn't hit GO or something.
1) He paid feeds for grazing, but it was to Clark County not the BLM.
2) The land was grabbed to help a Reid friend, not tortoises.
3) Those tortoises have been living comfortably with cattle for nearly 200 years without needing government help.
3) Grazing cattle is not "free" and its how cattle have been raised for thousands of years, this isn't some dirty trick. Urban people, I swear.
Posted by Christopher Taylor at April 12, 2014 7:24 AM
LadyRavenSDC, restricting airspace is common, keeps the news helicopters away.
Posted by Potsie at April 12, 2014 7:27 AM
Chris: you pretty well got it. See? people just don't know how screwed up they are until those who seek control tell them. This can be applied at home on the range as well as the inner city ghettos. (hmm, don't hear that word much anymore).
"There is simply no room left for 'freedom from the tyranny of government' since city dwellers depend on it for food, power, water, transportation, protection, and welfare. Your right to live where you want, with companions of your choosing, under laws to which you agree, died in the eighteenth century with Captain Mission. Only a miracle or a disaster could restore it." W. S. Burroughs — Cities of the Red Night
Inner city is not my choice for a battleground, too many collaterals around. next worst is big sky country. Where seldom is heard a discouraging word, just the whop whop whop of the rotors and "lock and load" on the ground. Bad venue for the defenders, tank country. They'd have a better chance in PacNW or back in Appalachia. Any venue resembling the terrain of Viet Nam or the hills of Afghanistan will favor us. Sheesh, can't we learn anything about defense from those small countries that thwarted US offense so well?
Posted by chasmatic at April 12, 2014 9:31 AM
There's a no fly zone over the area, and cell towers have been blacked out.
But, the local Sheriff just announced that the BLM is going to be standing down, so who knows what's going on.
Posted by Christopher Taylor at April 12, 2014 9:59 AM
I don't care if Bundy is a saint or a sinner. Anything that causes the Federal Entity to lose face is a good thing.
Someone once asked me, "Why are you so unpatriotic? You hate our government!" My reply: "What's this 'our' government you keep talking about? When was the last year the government in Washington really represented me and people like me? The government in Washington represents the interests of somebody, but that 'somebody' sure isn't straight white, middle-class, property-owning Christian men.
"The government in Austin still represents my interests to some degree. The government in Washington hates me and everyone like me. I know which government I'm loyal to."
Posted by B Lewis at April 12, 2014 1:06 PM
You know, if you're waiting for some saint to spark a war against the federal government, you are going to wait a long time; Joan of Arc is not here. If you require that those you fight for (in order to permit yourself to fight against) are righteous in all regard, then you will never mount a revolution. The leftists don't care that their heroes might be terrorists, or butchering abortionists. They will go all out defending them, but conservatives are always thinking "Why would I fight for that guy?" Get it through your heads, you aren't fighting for that particular guy; you should be fighting for yourself.
Posted by RonG at April 12, 2014 2:44 PM
Here's why I'm on the ranchers side regardless. It's a brief history of my personal experience (and lawsuit) with WA state DNR.
1) boyfriends mom had riverfront property. She took over a lease from DNR in 2002. It was basically a private dock, but you can't allow anyone but family to dick there if it's private. Property was a pre-statehood claim, which gave rights to mid river, but the state claims you just get to high tide.
2) DNR was going to renew the lease but back out with no reason given and started insisting on the family removing the dock. In reading the file, I'd say my boyfriend somehow pissed off a bureaucrat. (He was in his late 50s, with both hips replaced. Hardly a threat.)
3) DNR was considering renewing the lease. Boyfriends wife became sick and died. By the time he could pursue it again, there was a new Commissioner that wasn't interested.
4) DNR came up with a list of demands. Boyfriend was in the hospital having a second hip replacement. We paid all the past due fees and asked for an extension. They returned the money and took the family to court, citing nonpayment of the fees for one reason.
5) The mom was in ill health and I made an offer to buy it. Our suspicion is that DNR wants to confiscate the place. The thinking was that it would prevent that. It did piss the Asst AG off
6) the judge made no attempt at all to listen to our case. We were not allowed a trial and only our lawyer was allowed to speak in court. I was dragged into the suit, supposedly to determine the property line. They've determined the property is not part of the eviction, but will not dismiss me.
7) DNR threatened the county with being dragged into the lawsuit, if they did not hand over title to all the tidelands in our area. These were a gift to the county by a judge. We got the county to delay and were supposed to be notified about it. They went behind our backs anyway.
We are still awaiting whatever terrible fate they have in store for us. We've removed everything but two personal boats and the dock. We are responsible for removing two sunken boats that are not ours. One is so old it breaks up when we try to pull it up. State law allows us to have a private dock but state agencies don't follow the laws the rest of us have to obey.
I am tired of being treated like a criminal by unelected bureaucrats. I'm sure the rancher feels the same.
Posted by Teri Pittman at April 12, 2014 6:56 PM
It seems if Harry Reid is using Federal agents or any agency for personal gain regardless of what he claims, then he should be in a lot of trouble.
Posted by Kelvin at April 13, 2014 7:00 AM
County Commissioner Tom Collins is a piece of work... working for Reid. Also worked as a lobbyist for a developer who went to jail for 2 years for FEC violations, iow, spreading $$ around for his candidate.
Posted by Joan of Argghh! at April 13, 2014 4:14 PM
Something smells rotten when a hundred mounted cowboys can force the feds to back down. The Leviathan is biding its time.
Posted by Frank at April 13, 2014 7:57 PM
Frank: Cynical and realistic. I can only imagine what data the feds gathered on all those freedom fighters. By now they are little push pins on a map somewhere in the basement at Spooksville.
When Leviathan initiates a roundup of its own wanna guess where they start? It sure won't be at Black Panthers HQ.
Posted by chasmatic at April 13, 2014 11:25 PM
"When Leviathan initiates a roundup of its own wanna guess where they start? It sure won't be at Black Panthers HQ."
People must resist by peaceful means, the coming tyranny no matter the consequences or it is all over for our nation as we know and love it.
Everything the government does that violates the US Constitution and violates individual rights is what the Second Amendment is all about.
The top leadership was embarrassed by the Bundy operation. This makes these people even more dangerous. We cannot be intimidated into cowardice. The government and their agents/goons are the cowards. Some of them realize that now.
We must not allow the government to to continue these illegal operations. We must not allow ourselves to be splintered up. Stay together or lose EVERYTHING. And I mean EVERYTHING folks.
Posted by Terry at April 14, 2014 10:11 AM